Something to think about...........
Jan 26, 2013 7:17:34 GMT -5
Post by Ira A. Runyan on Jan 26, 2013 7:17:34 GMT -5
I have not seen much on the "Runyon List" for a while, but today I received 3 E-mails from the list which gives us something to think about as to the name Vincent Rongnion and where he came from.
Read this...........
Re: [RUNYON] Could Vincent Rongnion come from Pontoise instead ofPoitiers?
...
From:
Carol Anne <clkonfetti@gmail.com>
To: runyon@rootsweb.com
Hi Norman,
I haven't worked on this line in a long time! I would have to review.
I got the information about the births of the younger children from
William A. Whitehead, "Piscataway Register of Births," Proceedings of
the New Jersey Historical Society, Third Series, Vol. II (1897). I
believe you can find it online.
I did get a copy of Hugh Dunn's will, but it wasn't helpful. I
eventually traced the claim that Thomas Runyon's wife was Martha Dunn
back to Orra Eugene Monnette (1873–1936), who in his "First Settlers
of ye Plantations of Piscataway and Woodbridge, Olde East New Jersey,
1664-1714" made the claim, without citing any source for it.
If he actually had a source, I haven't discovered it. If it ever
existed, it may not now. I have asked numerous times on different
lists without getting any response. If anyone does know of proof, it's
a well kept secret! For all I know Monnette made it up! Anyway, for
now, I just have Thomas Runyon's wife as Martha, maiden name unknown.
Maybe someday autosomal DNA testing will tell us something.
Carol
Re: [RUNYON] Could Vincent Rongnion come from Pontoise instead ofPoitiers?
...
From:
"Fmr47@aol.com" <Fmr47@aol.com>
To: runyon@rootsweb.com
Norman,
I was at a Genealogical Society of New Jersey Spring Lecture a few years
back. When I signed-in a man behind the desk named Fred Sisser III spoke
up, that he ran across something stating the Vincent Sr. was in the first
divorce settlement in the state of NJ. Maybe that explains the names of
different wifes on the Piscataway Birth Records mentioned below. Fred was an
editor and contributor of the Genealogical Magazine of NJ and well respected
in genealogy circles in NJ. Since he said he couldn't remember where he
ran across the material, I just put it in the back of my mind. till read your
recent post.
Fred Runyon
Re: [RUNYON] Could Vincent Rongnion come from Pontoise instead ofPoitiers?
...
From:
Norman Runyon <norman@runyon.com>
To: runyon@rootsweb.com
Hi Carol,
I hope that this email address is still valid.
I am trying to get caught up on old unanswered emails and I came across
this July 2009 letter from you. I had gotten way behind on my genealogy
emails because I was working 2 jobs for some time and just didn't the
time to keep up.
I was fascinated by your information. Especially the documentation of
the younger children of Vincent. I had never seen that.
As for his older children, my guess is about the same as yours.
I agree fully with you that wife Anne and wife Martha were 2 different
women.
No, I don't know if there is documentation for Thomas marrying Martha
Dunn but it could exist. Maybe the Dunn family would have it? Perhaps a
family Bible?
A grandson of the Robert Runyon who co-authored "Runyon Genealogy" hired
a researcher to try to find Vincent in France several years ago. He did
not find Vincent but he did come up with some interesting information.
For one thing, we knew that the spelling Rongnion had to be incorrect
because the "ngn" letter combination is impossible French. The
researcher found a village named Cheneché that used to be about 5 miles
from Poitiers but which is now a suburb. In that town, he found records
of a lot of people named Rougnon. That spelling makes perfect sense and
is pronounced very close to Runyon. On of my brothers found a French
Catholic nun in California whose name was spelled Rougnon and who uses
the Runyon spelling in this country. Unfortunately, while the researcher
found men named Vincent Rougnon in Cheneché, he did not find one that
would match the one who came to NJ. However, he said that a lot of the
town and church records had been destroyed by fire over the years. I
figure that Vincent was from Cheneché but gave the name Poitiers when
asked of his origin since no one outside of France would ever have heard
of Cheneché - Just like we do now days if we live in a small suburb of a
big city. I am sure that Rougnon is the correct French spelling of our name.
For that matter, I may have mentioned this before, but I am not
convinced that Vincent was a Huguenot. But that is another discussion.
Norman
On 7/19/2009 12:38 AM, Carol Anne wrote:
> Hi Norman,
>
> Thanks so much for the information!
>
> Would you happen to know of any source for the claim that Thomas
> Runyon married Martha Dunn, daughter of Hugh Dunn?
>
> Withe regard to Vincent Runyon, John Runyon, and Thomas Runyon, is
> there any documentation to prove that they are the sons of Vincent
> Rongnion, or is it just assumed that they have to be his sons because
> he was the only possible person in the area at the time who could have
> been their father, and because each of them named a son Vincent? Is
> their birth order definitely known?
>
> For the younger children I have (from "Piscataway Births published in
> Proceedings of the NJ Historical Society"):
>
> Vincent and Ann:
>
> Mary - July 2, 1677
> Peter - July 1, 1680
> Jane - Jan. 19, 1683
> Sarah - Oct. 30, 1686
>
> Vincent and Martha
>
> L__ (son) - Mar. 4, 1698-9
>
>
> Considering the gap between the birth date of Vincent's child by
> Martha and his last child by Ann, and the short average lifespan at
> that era, I see no reason to believe that Ann and Martha were the same
> person. Quite the contrary.
>
> I have proven my line back to Thomas Runyon and have obtained a copy
> of his estate settlement. Would you happen to have Vincent's? From
> "Calendar of New Jersey Wills", I get the impression that it consists
> of nothing but letters of administration granted to his wife. Do you
> know if this is correct? For a few other New Jersey ancestors, I have
> found my proofs in the final account, rather than in the will itself.
> I've been sending for estate packets five at a time, and need to send
> for Hugh Dunn's in my next request to see if it shed's any light on
> the widespread claim that his daughter was Thomas Runyon's wife. No
> one seems to know where that information came from.
>
> I try to get primary documentation for everything. You see some really
> strange errors in online genealogy - but I won't go into that!
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Carol Anne
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Norman Runyon<norman@runyon.com> wrote:
>> Hi Carol Anne,
>> Thank you for the food for thought.
>> Regarding Vincent's marriage license: I do think that his surname was mis-spelled since the "ngn" in Rongnion is impossible French.
>> The late Amali Perkins (d/o Robert Runyon, co-author of "Runyon Genealogy") had a "Runyon Tidbits" website which was kept by her son - who had hired extensive research done in France. The website is gone now but the research, along with other research done by others, indicates that Vincent may have been from the village of Chéché which is near Poitiers. There are a lot of people around there with the surname Rougnon - which I believe to be the correct spelling of Vincent's surname. The French pronunciation of Rougnon is almost identical to Runyon - except for the way the French pronounce the letter "R".
>> I really doubt that Vincent was from the Rognon family as that pronunciation is quite different from Runyon.
>> I would not rule out your speculation on the birth place of Vincent since it is possible that his family may have moved after his birth. However, I do not believe that the clerk who made out the marriage license would have erred about Vincent having been from Poitiers just prior to his coming to America. Poitiers was and is a famous city and the clerk would have been very familiar with that city. There is no way to tell whether the clerk was French or English. NJ was an English colony at that time but it's governor was French so he may have had a French clerk.
>> Regarding Chéché: While there have long been many Rougnons there, unfortunately, the Catholic Church records from Vincent's time there are missing. It would not have been surprising for Vincent's origin to be listed as Poitiers, even if he were really from Chéché, since no one in NJ would likely have ever heard of Chéché. Just like in this country now: When someone is from a small town near a large city, it is common for them to name the large city when asked about where they are from - just so that the listener has an understandable point of reference.
>> Personally, I am very skeptical about claims that Vincent was a Huguenot. There is only once "source:" for that claim - that being Orra Eugene Monette who published "First Settlers of Ye Plantations of Piscataway and Woodbridge" in 1931. Mr. Monnette was famous as a lawyer and as the founder of the Bank of America. He was born in Ohio and died in California and was active in the "Sons of the Revolution" and he founded the California branch of the "Huguenots in America" Society. Unfortunately, however good he may have been at other ventures in his life, he was not an accurate nor a reliable genealogist. His book on Piscataway has brought great grief to many, many NJ genealogists due to it's extensive inaccuracies and errors. The book claims Vincent as a Huguenot - 260 years after the fact - but it presents no documentation whatsoever for the claim.
>> What can be proven about Vincent's church affiliation is pretty skimpy. There were no Catholic churches in America when he arrived and no church records have survived to document his attendance. All we know is that, after he moved to Piscataway, there was no church at all at first. Later, some of the Baptists in town got together and started a house church in their homes. We know that Vincent's children were Baptists but that could simply be the result of the fact that they grew up in the Baptist Church which resulted in them all marrying Baptists. Quite some time later, a Church of England was started in Piscataway (now an Episcopal church) and some traditions claim that Vincent is buried in the Episcopal cemetery. That would make sense if he were born Catholic since there is little difference between the liturgy of the 2 churches - plus his wife was, almost, certainly of the Church of England. They might have switched churches whe the C. of E. became available.
>> Please let me know if you have any questions and/or comments.
>> Norman Runyon
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Carol Anne
>> To: Runyon Surname
>> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 9:15 PM
>> Subject: [RUNYON] Could Vincent Rongnion come from Pontoise instead ofPoitiers?
>>
>>
>> I'm fairly new to Runyon research. Has anyone checked out the
>> possibility that Vincent came from the Rognon families of
>> Meurthe-Et-Moselle?
>>
>> Even if he lived in Poitiers just before he came to America, he may
>> have been born elsewhere in France, and even if he was a Protestant
>> when he arrived, he may have been born and bred a Catholic, so the
>> records of Catholic churches need to be checked also, I think.
>>
>> The LDS website also shows quite a few people bearing the surname of
>> Rognon in the former department of Seine-et-Oise (see Wikipedia),
>> which contains a town named "Pontoise". The pronunciation is different
>> from "Poitiers", but how well did the person writing Vincent
>> Rongnion's marriage license understand what was said and how well did
>> that person know the towns of France and how to spell them? Has anyone
>> checked out this possibility? And a very quick Google search mentions
>> Pontoise in connection with the Huguenots.
>>
>> Just an idea. Any comments?
>>
>> Carol Anne
Read this...........
Re: [RUNYON] Could Vincent Rongnion come from Pontoise instead ofPoitiers?
...
From:
Carol Anne <clkonfetti@gmail.com>
To: runyon@rootsweb.com
Hi Norman,
I haven't worked on this line in a long time! I would have to review.
I got the information about the births of the younger children from
William A. Whitehead, "Piscataway Register of Births," Proceedings of
the New Jersey Historical Society, Third Series, Vol. II (1897). I
believe you can find it online.
I did get a copy of Hugh Dunn's will, but it wasn't helpful. I
eventually traced the claim that Thomas Runyon's wife was Martha Dunn
back to Orra Eugene Monnette (1873–1936), who in his "First Settlers
of ye Plantations of Piscataway and Woodbridge, Olde East New Jersey,
1664-1714" made the claim, without citing any source for it.
If he actually had a source, I haven't discovered it. If it ever
existed, it may not now. I have asked numerous times on different
lists without getting any response. If anyone does know of proof, it's
a well kept secret! For all I know Monnette made it up! Anyway, for
now, I just have Thomas Runyon's wife as Martha, maiden name unknown.
Maybe someday autosomal DNA testing will tell us something.
Carol
Re: [RUNYON] Could Vincent Rongnion come from Pontoise instead ofPoitiers?
...
From:
"Fmr47@aol.com" <Fmr47@aol.com>
To: runyon@rootsweb.com
Norman,
I was at a Genealogical Society of New Jersey Spring Lecture a few years
back. When I signed-in a man behind the desk named Fred Sisser III spoke
up, that he ran across something stating the Vincent Sr. was in the first
divorce settlement in the state of NJ. Maybe that explains the names of
different wifes on the Piscataway Birth Records mentioned below. Fred was an
editor and contributor of the Genealogical Magazine of NJ and well respected
in genealogy circles in NJ. Since he said he couldn't remember where he
ran across the material, I just put it in the back of my mind. till read your
recent post.
Fred Runyon
Re: [RUNYON] Could Vincent Rongnion come from Pontoise instead ofPoitiers?
...
From:
Norman Runyon <norman@runyon.com>
To: runyon@rootsweb.com
Hi Carol,
I hope that this email address is still valid.
I am trying to get caught up on old unanswered emails and I came across
this July 2009 letter from you. I had gotten way behind on my genealogy
emails because I was working 2 jobs for some time and just didn't the
time to keep up.
I was fascinated by your information. Especially the documentation of
the younger children of Vincent. I had never seen that.
As for his older children, my guess is about the same as yours.
I agree fully with you that wife Anne and wife Martha were 2 different
women.
No, I don't know if there is documentation for Thomas marrying Martha
Dunn but it could exist. Maybe the Dunn family would have it? Perhaps a
family Bible?
A grandson of the Robert Runyon who co-authored "Runyon Genealogy" hired
a researcher to try to find Vincent in France several years ago. He did
not find Vincent but he did come up with some interesting information.
For one thing, we knew that the spelling Rongnion had to be incorrect
because the "ngn" letter combination is impossible French. The
researcher found a village named Cheneché that used to be about 5 miles
from Poitiers but which is now a suburb. In that town, he found records
of a lot of people named Rougnon. That spelling makes perfect sense and
is pronounced very close to Runyon. On of my brothers found a French
Catholic nun in California whose name was spelled Rougnon and who uses
the Runyon spelling in this country. Unfortunately, while the researcher
found men named Vincent Rougnon in Cheneché, he did not find one that
would match the one who came to NJ. However, he said that a lot of the
town and church records had been destroyed by fire over the years. I
figure that Vincent was from Cheneché but gave the name Poitiers when
asked of his origin since no one outside of France would ever have heard
of Cheneché - Just like we do now days if we live in a small suburb of a
big city. I am sure that Rougnon is the correct French spelling of our name.
For that matter, I may have mentioned this before, but I am not
convinced that Vincent was a Huguenot. But that is another discussion.
Norman
On 7/19/2009 12:38 AM, Carol Anne wrote:
> Hi Norman,
>
> Thanks so much for the information!
>
> Would you happen to know of any source for the claim that Thomas
> Runyon married Martha Dunn, daughter of Hugh Dunn?
>
> Withe regard to Vincent Runyon, John Runyon, and Thomas Runyon, is
> there any documentation to prove that they are the sons of Vincent
> Rongnion, or is it just assumed that they have to be his sons because
> he was the only possible person in the area at the time who could have
> been their father, and because each of them named a son Vincent? Is
> their birth order definitely known?
>
> For the younger children I have (from "Piscataway Births published in
> Proceedings of the NJ Historical Society"):
>
> Vincent and Ann:
>
> Mary - July 2, 1677
> Peter - July 1, 1680
> Jane - Jan. 19, 1683
> Sarah - Oct. 30, 1686
>
> Vincent and Martha
>
> L__ (son) - Mar. 4, 1698-9
>
>
> Considering the gap between the birth date of Vincent's child by
> Martha and his last child by Ann, and the short average lifespan at
> that era, I see no reason to believe that Ann and Martha were the same
> person. Quite the contrary.
>
> I have proven my line back to Thomas Runyon and have obtained a copy
> of his estate settlement. Would you happen to have Vincent's? From
> "Calendar of New Jersey Wills", I get the impression that it consists
> of nothing but letters of administration granted to his wife. Do you
> know if this is correct? For a few other New Jersey ancestors, I have
> found my proofs in the final account, rather than in the will itself.
> I've been sending for estate packets five at a time, and need to send
> for Hugh Dunn's in my next request to see if it shed's any light on
> the widespread claim that his daughter was Thomas Runyon's wife. No
> one seems to know where that information came from.
>
> I try to get primary documentation for everything. You see some really
> strange errors in online genealogy - but I won't go into that!
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Carol Anne
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Norman Runyon<norman@runyon.com> wrote:
>> Hi Carol Anne,
>> Thank you for the food for thought.
>> Regarding Vincent's marriage license: I do think that his surname was mis-spelled since the "ngn" in Rongnion is impossible French.
>> The late Amali Perkins (d/o Robert Runyon, co-author of "Runyon Genealogy") had a "Runyon Tidbits" website which was kept by her son - who had hired extensive research done in France. The website is gone now but the research, along with other research done by others, indicates that Vincent may have been from the village of Chéché which is near Poitiers. There are a lot of people around there with the surname Rougnon - which I believe to be the correct spelling of Vincent's surname. The French pronunciation of Rougnon is almost identical to Runyon - except for the way the French pronounce the letter "R".
>> I really doubt that Vincent was from the Rognon family as that pronunciation is quite different from Runyon.
>> I would not rule out your speculation on the birth place of Vincent since it is possible that his family may have moved after his birth. However, I do not believe that the clerk who made out the marriage license would have erred about Vincent having been from Poitiers just prior to his coming to America. Poitiers was and is a famous city and the clerk would have been very familiar with that city. There is no way to tell whether the clerk was French or English. NJ was an English colony at that time but it's governor was French so he may have had a French clerk.
>> Regarding Chéché: While there have long been many Rougnons there, unfortunately, the Catholic Church records from Vincent's time there are missing. It would not have been surprising for Vincent's origin to be listed as Poitiers, even if he were really from Chéché, since no one in NJ would likely have ever heard of Chéché. Just like in this country now: When someone is from a small town near a large city, it is common for them to name the large city when asked about where they are from - just so that the listener has an understandable point of reference.
>> Personally, I am very skeptical about claims that Vincent was a Huguenot. There is only once "source:" for that claim - that being Orra Eugene Monette who published "First Settlers of Ye Plantations of Piscataway and Woodbridge" in 1931. Mr. Monnette was famous as a lawyer and as the founder of the Bank of America. He was born in Ohio and died in California and was active in the "Sons of the Revolution" and he founded the California branch of the "Huguenots in America" Society. Unfortunately, however good he may have been at other ventures in his life, he was not an accurate nor a reliable genealogist. His book on Piscataway has brought great grief to many, many NJ genealogists due to it's extensive inaccuracies and errors. The book claims Vincent as a Huguenot - 260 years after the fact - but it presents no documentation whatsoever for the claim.
>> What can be proven about Vincent's church affiliation is pretty skimpy. There were no Catholic churches in America when he arrived and no church records have survived to document his attendance. All we know is that, after he moved to Piscataway, there was no church at all at first. Later, some of the Baptists in town got together and started a house church in their homes. We know that Vincent's children were Baptists but that could simply be the result of the fact that they grew up in the Baptist Church which resulted in them all marrying Baptists. Quite some time later, a Church of England was started in Piscataway (now an Episcopal church) and some traditions claim that Vincent is buried in the Episcopal cemetery. That would make sense if he were born Catholic since there is little difference between the liturgy of the 2 churches - plus his wife was, almost, certainly of the Church of England. They might have switched churches whe the C. of E. became available.
>> Please let me know if you have any questions and/or comments.
>> Norman Runyon
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Carol Anne
>> To: Runyon Surname
>> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 9:15 PM
>> Subject: [RUNYON] Could Vincent Rongnion come from Pontoise instead ofPoitiers?
>>
>>
>> I'm fairly new to Runyon research. Has anyone checked out the
>> possibility that Vincent came from the Rognon families of
>> Meurthe-Et-Moselle?
>>
>> Even if he lived in Poitiers just before he came to America, he may
>> have been born elsewhere in France, and even if he was a Protestant
>> when he arrived, he may have been born and bred a Catholic, so the
>> records of Catholic churches need to be checked also, I think.
>>
>> The LDS website also shows quite a few people bearing the surname of
>> Rognon in the former department of Seine-et-Oise (see Wikipedia),
>> which contains a town named "Pontoise". The pronunciation is different
>> from "Poitiers", but how well did the person writing Vincent
>> Rongnion's marriage license understand what was said and how well did
>> that person know the towns of France and how to spell them? Has anyone
>> checked out this possibility? And a very quick Google search mentions
>> Pontoise in connection with the Huguenots.
>>
>> Just an idea. Any comments?
>>
>> Carol Anne